Accelerating Leadership Development and Teamwork
Introduction
Michael Daehne: Hey y'all. Welcome to Inflect. I'm Michael Daehne.
Have you ever heard of the word Praxis? P-R-A-X-I-S. It's an ancient Greek word that means putting theory into action. The kind of intentional doing that creates real change.
On today's episode of Inflect, my guest is Joe Han, a strategist and leadership coach who lives out the spirit of Praxis by leading wilderness-based leadership development experiences. Every time I talk to Joe, I learn something new and walk away with a new tool in my leadership toolbox. I hope you enjoy our discussion and walk away with some valuable knowledge, or at the very least, the urge to get outside.
Opening
Michael Daehne: Hey Joe. Good morning.
Joe Han: Hey Michael. Glad to be here.
MD: How are you today?
JH: I'm good. I'm good. It's Friday perfect weather, springtime in Austin, so really can't complain.
MD: Awesome. It is a beautiful day. I am so glad to be connecting with you. We met, I don't know, maybe about a month ago, and I just loved a lot of the things you were sharing in our workshop that we did together. And I'm so glad to have you on the podcast to share some of your, your wisdom and expertise with our listeners.
Praxis Explained
Michael Dahne: Maybe as a starting point for those who don't know, you. It'd be great if you could just tell, tell us a little bit more about yourself and your, your career journey and, because we talked about this offline, I'm going to tee you up here. Tell us about the word praxis, which I had never heard until, until today.
Joe Han: Yeah, absolutely. I'll start with the word praxis, and then I'll kind of jump in about how my career journey has led to where I am now and, where praxis even came from. But Praxis, P-R-A-X-I-S, it's a real word. It's, it's not made up. People often think I'm saying practice
MD: I did think you were saying practice originally. Like I, of course I know that word, Joe.
JH: Yeah, absolutely. But when I finally found that word, it really clicked a lot of things that I was thinking about. So, Praxis, again, P-R-A-X-I-S I think it goes back to like the Greek origin, think like ethos and logos and, and that kind of vein of words.
Praxis is really a cyclical process of experiential learning. It is taking theory and action and reflection and going through this process of applying those and, and then just iterating on it. So instead of people who are over-indexing on theory and knowledge and just learning concepts, or people that are over-indexing on just doing and not really applying theory or best practices, it takes those and, in a never-ending cycle, just repeats thinking and learning about different concepts and then applying them and, and building things and testing them out, and then taking time and moments to reflect on what you're doing and then reiterate, add in more theory and knowledge, um, and just keep, keep that cycle going. And I think that's such an important word and concepts to integrate in anything you're talking about when you're talking about growth or change or just living out life in general.
Uh, Praxis is such a, a strong concept to really live by.
MD: That is amazing. Well, I, I learned something new today. We've only been talking for like two minutes. I already learned something new, and I completely understand why you said ask me about Praxis based on the work you do around leadership coaching and, and outdoor adventures.
Living out the Spirit of Praxis
Michael Daehne: So tell us, tell us more about that and how that helps you live out the spirit of Praxis.
Joe Han: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I suppose there's kind of three parts to how leadership development came into contact with wilderness experiences and nature experiences and then where Praxis kind of comes into that. Um, it all started back in, I suppose I'll go back to, to the college time where I was studying leadership studies, which is a pretty uncommon degree.
There's not many degrees in leadership studies, um, although there's different programs. So that was what my degree was in. And the types of things I was studying in undergrad. And since then, I went and taught abroad in, in Madrid. Um, and learn how to, how to engage with people to get them to learn things.
You’re teaching 16-year-olds about the Cold War in their second language, when all they want to do is run off and, and be kids, if you can do that, then you can teach people who really want to know how to do their job better, how to improve and do their job better. So, got a crash course in, um, in helping to engage learners in an effective way.
Sales Leadership and Enablement
JH: But after that, moved back to Austin and joined a tech company for sales. So, I was doing tech sales for a while, sales leadership, and then ultimately enablement. Um, so just some quick preface of what that looks like. It, it, it's interesting because, you know, sales, they, they do whatever they need to do to hit their number.
And when some change happens, the ops and other parts of business, the side of things, they have all these lists of things that they want sales to do. They need sales to talk about a product differently or input fields in Salesforce or, you know, a number of things that they all want sales to do differently.
So how do you get an organization of sellers to change and, and. Actually change their behavior and what they do? That's where the real enablement comes in. You have all the systems side of things like incentives and, and mandatory fields and stuff, but enablement is really how to get alignment on the direction from the very top and also build groundswell from the bottom, and then operationalize, linking those two together.
So that's some of the work I was involved in.
Outdoor Guiding
JH: Along the way, was studying organizational behavior. So I went to the Harvard Extension School. I got a graduate certificate on learned topics like motivation, org psychology, negotiation. But meanwhile, uh, that's when I started doing some outdoor guiding.
So almost five years ago I heard about this really cool, uh, nonprofit in Austin called Explore Austin. It's for youth. They take in a bunch of youth and pair them with mentors, and for six years, uh, they go up, up all the way up until they graduate high school, they go and have these experiences in nature, and it's a great way for them to actually have experiential learning versus more conceptual learning that you'd get in controlled environments like classrooms or offices or whatever that is.
And it's also a place for youth to push their comfort zones, which leads to breakthroughs in confidence in their mindset, and even the mentors. Mentors are meant to be there to help develop the youth. Often in these outdoor experiences, they say that they get more out of it than they expected, and sometimes they even get more out of it than they think the kids did. And I just remember thinking, being involved in that organization as a guide and, and helping to, uh, create the space for the mentors and the youth to, um, have these experiences together. I remember thinking, why don't we have this for adults? I, I wish I could be like one of the explorers and have a mentor and have a guide that helps develop me outside.
That was like, a seed that was planted in my mind of being able to build the skills to bring it for youth. But really just wishing that there was similar opportunities like that for myself, like for adults, people like me. Um, over time I started accruing the guiding certs, got my wilderness first responder certification, my climbing single pitch instructor certification.
My responsibilities kind of grew a little bit, I became a senior guide, got sent out to scout new locations, make itineraries for trips, and about a, maybe a year or two ago is been those two worlds of the corporate enablement, uh, organizational behavior world and the guiding world started merging.
I first noticed a pattern with friends and colleagues taking time off to recharge in nature, and that could be as intense as some of my friends would go, like heli skiing, they would, they would fly up in helicopters and jump out and ski down like perfect powder areas or even people that like aren't as adventurous, they would still take time off and still spend it outside lounging on a beach or whatever that might be.
And the time I would take off was to, to go off and, and guide in nature and help develop the youth and, and the mentors that were with them. Um, and then I realized, you know what? There's a big opportunity to do this for adults in the professional world where you take executive coaches, leadership development professionals and practitioners, and what would happen if you take those skills and you combine it with the outdoor elements of guiding companies that are open to partnering with executive coaches and executive coaches who already have an orientation to the outdoors and, and had those benefits.
Peak Praxis
JH: So that's really what, where Peak Praxis was born, and that's the, the company that we created to, to create that offering and have it available for corporations or different organizations that want to really leverage the outdoors to accelerate the, the growth that they have, uh, and just, uh, find a way to, in a healthy, resilient way, grow their people and organizations.
MD: Yeah, that is a wonderful overview. Thanks for walking through that and I think it starts to answer the question, Michael, you run a company that helps clients envision, plan and deliver technology transformation. I. Why are we talking about wilderness and leadership coaching on the podcast today? And it's because all those things you mentioned from an executive coaching perspective, from a motivation and org behavior perspective, all those things that you are doing through your work are right in line with and relevant to the project work we do.
Because as we say often it's not about the bits and bytes, it's about the people and processes. So often, we are working with clients that are navigating significant change, um, and, and they have, you know, there's various leadership coaching activities and there's workshops and change management. And then I think on the weekends or in the evenings, many of them like to go be outdoors, but we don't often think about how to bridge those or connect those two.
Outdoor Accelerant to Leadership Development
Michael Daehne: Through our conversations, you've really opened my eyes to, to the value of, I think what you call an outdoor accelerant piece to leadership development and team development. Talk a little bit more about what that looks like, the value of doing some of these things, you know, on a trail or while climbing as opposed to in a conference room.
Joe Han: Absolutely. Nature has a, a lot of benefits that you're able to use, uh, when you remove yourself from the controlled environments that we're in, whether it's your home office or your, the office downtown or whatever it might be. Um, the, the setting of nature completely changes things. So, it starts to strip away titles and formalities, and that means that people connect as humans first.
It also removes the constant digital inputs that just erode your attention span. And by taking those away, mindfulness and deep listening come naturally. So nature is where experiential learning happens compared to a boardroom or a classroom or a virtual setting, where most of the learning or problem solving is just conceptual.
So out in nature, people actually see people's real strengths and weaknesses and support styles in action. And pushing that comfort zone of the different people really leads to the breakthroughs and confidence and mindsets. So there's lots of lessons in nature, uh, just ready to be felt and uncovered, and lots of metaphors that you are able to bring in and accelerate your learning by being in that different setting, engaging experientially, not just conceptually, and then being able to learn from all the different lessons that nature has to offer.
MD: One of, one of those metaphors that that comes to mind, and you know this, Joe, I'm, I'm not the most outdoorsy person. I'm not out on, on the trail or doing the, certainly not doing heli skiing. Is that what you called it?
JH: Yeah.
MD: That's not my jam. I'm more of a sit on the beach kind of guy.
Learning from Physical Challenges
MD: But as we're thinking through this and kind of what some of these experiences might look like, I'm thinking about some of the physical challenges that that would kind of go along with, with some of these experiences and how those might be a, a metaphor or a learning experience for, uh, some of the corporate challenges in the day-to-day.
Talk about maybe what that looks like and perhaps what you've seen individuals or teams learn from the physical challenges of some of these experiences.
Joe Han: Yeah, absolutely. So, if you think about a system, a business is really just a system and each team is part of that system. Nature also is just one large system. It's an ecosystem. And it's interesting, we actually in business often, uh. Mimic or borrow a lot of the language from nature. We refer to the business as a living organization that we, we look at its health and we want to grow.
Those are all naturally occurring things that happen. So we can really learn from a lot of the metaphors that, uh, uh, that nature has that are also just parallels of challenges that we face in the corporate world. I mean, I suppose three come to mind here. One of them is if you stare at a plant, I'm not sure if you have a, do you have a plant next to your office.
MD: Sure do.
JH: Nice. Now, if you, if you intently stare at that plant waiting for it to grow, not much is going to happen. But I'm not sure about you. Have you've ever seen a time lapse of a plant growing?
MD: Yeah, it's awesome.
JH: yeah, it, it's wild how animated they actually are. They're moving around and crazy, but you have to speed up time to be able to see it.
And there's so many lessons like that in nature that teach us that, you know, growth takes time. You, you have to be patient with it. You can't just like stare at something waiting for it to grow. You have to give it the time it needs to really grow. A second lesson from nature is that a lot of growth is actually happening.
Underground roots are growing down and uh, are strengthening the, its space and foundation and a lot of that growth is stuff that we don't see. It's invisible to the outside world, and that's also just a reflection of growth with teams and people. So much of what's happening is happening. Underneath beneath the surface in their internal world.
And what we see the results of that growth are often just fractions of what's actually going on. And then finally, another, another lesson from, from nature is, uh, pruning can hurt, but it promotes healthy growth. There's lots of times where you might have things that overgrow and you need to prune it back to then direct the energy in the way that you want it to go.
And there's so much to learn there from, from. The, the challenges that we face, where are areas that we need to prune and let go of certain things to then direct healthy growth. Uh, nature really just puts you in a place to, uh, to be reminded of, of that all the time.
MD: Yeah, great examples of the intersection I guess, or the relationship between these things that are in nature and then some of the experiences that we may be, uh, thinking about it in kind of corporate speak or, or the corporate world. I love the visual of the, the plant growing via time lapse.
Right. I'm just, I'm thinking about that as a, a perfect metaphor for how individuals and teams and organizations are constantly growing and evolving, but it may not look and feel like that every day. Right. Um, and it, it's not a, it's not a straight line growth path. Um.
JH: Yeah.
MD: Yeah. Great, great point.
Patterns in Outdoor Leadership Experiences
MD: You know, you had mentioned something else and we had coffee a few weeks ago that just totally caught my attention, which was something you've noticed about teams and individuals when you start one of these outdoor leadership experiences and then how those, those may evolve.
What's a predictable pattern you may have noticed?
JH: It, it is really, it's really fun going on these trips or organizing trips in general. Because the patterns pretty much emerge anytime, even if it's, whether it's an outdoor wildness trip where the adventure level is pretty high. Or even if it's something, uh, where the adventure level is really low, a predictable pattern emerges when you bring a group together for a while, and it almost always starts out with initial resistance. Not everyone wants to be there. Comfort zones are being tested. And in the context of let's say, an outdoor trip, that first night, usually you, you don't sleep very well, you're sleeping on the ground or, and not in your normal place that you're used to. So, uh, the initial resistance really marks the first step of any kind of trip.
And over time, as, as the experience continues, as people start to settle into this new space because anything new often comes with lots of uncertainty, lots of change that gets people pushed out of their comfort zone.
Eventually there comes a tipping point, usually in the, in, in a trip is it's around day two or three and you can't really measure a tipping point. It's something kind of, um, anecdotal, but you know, you can't measure the amount of smiles you see and be like, oh, we hit 10 smiles. We've hit that tipping point.
It's something you kind of just feel where people lighten up. Uh, people's moods change. People have reacclimated to this new environment where humans really come first. Uh, you know, you really see a person as being a person instead of their title or, or whatever labels that we have on them. And that's really where the magic starts happening, where people start really bonding over the shared experiences, uh, the, the novel things that they're doing.
And that's when the big elements of, of like special cohesion come in where people now have their inside jokes, their shared nicknames, their um, shared experiences that really start bonding them together.
The Leader Sets the Tone
JH: And I think there's a lot to learn from that. In, in any kind of corporate setting, a, a few lessons is that the leader really sets the tone. Uh, they really show other people and model how to act in certain ways.
I remember that I was leading this one trip and there's a lot of logistic nightmares happening. Uh, there's flights that got mixed up. There were rental cars that, uh, got mixed up and we ended up, uh, in, in, uh, Wendy's parking lot in West Virginia as, uh, as about 20 different high school students flew in and, and 10 of their mentors.
And I remember a few of their mentors were really upset about the whole. Whole ordeal, which don't get me wrong, I, I wasn't too happy either. Uh, there's lots of challenges to roll with, but that, I just remember the explorers looking at the mentors, not really knowing how to react and seeing the mentors start to get frustrated and angry and look for people to blame and point fingers.
And I just remember thinking, you know, you're, you're setting the tone of how to respond to this, of what reaction and behavior is normal compared to some other mentors who, who weren't the happiest with it, but found a way to still show up, uh, confidently and in a secure way for their explorers. And it just really reinforces how important it is that the leader sets the tone, and energy is contagious. People really, uh, catch on to that.
Also though it gets easier, it especially together when you start to navigate this change and everything's new, um, it starts becoming easier as your exposure to it becomes more normalized.
But it's also when you're in these contexts with new areas, that's where new norms get to set in and you get to shape them. The status quo is, is frozen, but when you go out on a trip like this, it thaws. That's when you have a chance to reshape things. Until it then, will eventually refreeze again, and that becomes the new status quo.
Uh, so it's really great to be able to go on these trips and have the opportunity to, to bring in those elements.
MD: Yeah. Your, your story about kind of the leaders and their, their reaction to the logistical challenges and the tone of starting the trip. I'm just thinking about project kickoff meetings in my world, right? Where it's like, okay, we're, we're all going to get in a conference room. We're going to talk about this, this new six month or three year project or whatever, and all the core players are involved. And there, there may be a few folks in the room that are really excited, but most folks in the room are probably a little apprehensive or anxious. And so the, the body language and tone of some of those core leaders totally sets the vibe and the mood.
Um, not only of the meeting, but of the journey ahead, um, which I, I think is true, true in your world too.
I'm curious, one, one follow-up on that. That's kind of the front end, and then you talked about status quo, kind of thawing, and maybe on day two, folks getting more, more comfortable with each other.
Experiencing and Managing Fatigue
MD: But what about fatigue? Like, does fatigue kick in on, I don't know, day two, day three, depending on how long these trips are? And, and does that create a, a new, um, challenge or roadblock you have to navigate? Because I think in the, in the, the metaphor of our project work, that's a, that's a different challenge kind of as you get to the, the halfway market, the three quarters mark, where that change fatigue is really setting in.
JH: Absolutely. I mean, fatigue comes in for sure. And the interesting part about fatigue is that everyone has a different level and different tolerance for it. And everyone has a different level of how much they want to communicate and hide it or, or be okay. Being loud and, and showing it. And it's really the, the job of everyone, but particularly for leaders and people helping with the, the trip to know that it's coming.
Look for ways to, for, for signals that it's starting and to address it. Um. I guess there, there's some differences with when it comes to youth and when it comes to adults, but there's still a lot to learn from it. But really just normalizing talk about how you're doing and how you're feeling and, and more specifically, what you need and voicing what you need.
Creating a culture where that's acceptable and, and not just acceptable, but encouraged and where other people look out for each other, that's really important because you know, if it, it's not, if fatigue happens, it's when fatigue comes, what are things you can do about it and how can other people support you and how can you communicate to them that you need support?
Um, so I mean, that, those are a few things that come to mind.
Creating an Environment of Psychological Safety
MD: Yeah. Creating that environment or a culture of psychological safety and clarity of communication channels and, um, kind of openness and vulnerability. Um, again, whether you're out, out in the wilderness on one of these trips or navigating a corporate transformation or some other big change or challenge, you know, if you have some of those foundational things, then when, when the fatigue or other issues or challenges set in, you have the, the environment and the mechanisms to raise your hand and say, Hey, I, I need a, I need a break, or I need to do something different here.
JH: Yeah, and something really important, a big distinction is that in the workplace, often the permission you have or the mechanisms you have to communicate your fatigue and ask for support, there's a lot more complexity that happens in the workplace. There's a lot more work dynamics, hierarchy, titles that create norms that might make it more difficult for certain people to communicate that they have fatigue and need support, or there might be more dynamics for you to feel like you need to hide it. And nature is really a great equalizer because nature's going to treat you the same regardless of your title. And fatigue is going to come as, as you are as a human regardless of your work experience.
Uh, and in the context of nature, when you're outdoors and you're kind of stripped away from titles in the controlled environment, you get to connect more as human and. Be able to voice your needs and support and relate to each other and show up and support each other more as a human without all the added labels and elements that a workplace brings in.
So that when you go back into the workplace with that deeper connection you have with people, it can really accelerate how you work together and create better ways for everyone to work together, uh, more effectively.
MD: Yeah. The, the more we talk, the more the wheels are turning in my brain thinking, how do I get my team or some of my clients' teams out on one of these, one of these adventures? Because that point that you've highlighted a few times is really resonating with me, which is we, we have these systems and norms and things in the.
Corporate environment that in a lot of ways are blockers for actually having, um, valuable human interaction, um, and, and expressing more human needs and, um, communicating with one another. And so I, I can completely understand how kind of getting out of the, getting out of the boardroom or getting out of the office and, and out, uh, on one of these adventures would help kind of shed some of that baggage, so to say, and really cut to the heart of the matter.
JH: Yeah. Couldn't have said it better myself.
MD: Yeah. Well just one, one more question for you, Joe, and then we'll, we'll do a few lightning round, uh, questions.
Applying These Lessons to the Workplace
Michael Daehne: But what about for executives who, who can't take their team out, right? They can't, can't call you up and say, Hey Joe, let's go, uh, let's go out in the woods for three days. Um, you know, what are some practical ways maybe they can apply some of the principles we've talked about in the workplace?
Joe Han: Look at the different types of meetings or ways people are gathering and, uh, be aware of what's going on there. So, in a virtual meeting where time is mandated, you have to be at this virtual meeting, time is no longer your most important asset. Your attention is what's most important. People's attention, they actually have to pay attention to get what's going on. And, and the content of that meeting is essentially selling the content to people who buy it with their attention. Uh, but when they are engaging in that virtual way, only a few of their senses are really being engaged.
So, if you then call for an in-person meeting, um, that's a great way a, a chance to remove the digital inputs you have and start to connect more on a human level. Uh, but if you really are wanting to foster stronger teams and meet before the intention of doing that, um. You, you don't have to go out into the wilderness to get a lot of the benefits of being able to meet in person or even leverage concepts from nature.
Uh, there's another concept called the third place, which really comes into here. Now often, the third place is referred to in a social setting. It's not your home, not your work, but a third place that is neutral where there's, uh, low barrier to entry, people can go and. Connect on more of a social level, you can really leverage that novelty, the new setting that shifts in perspective that you get from a third place, but still use it in a corporate or professional setting.
You think about it as a perspective cleanser, a place where you get to recraft the norms that, you know, if you go into your boardroom, there's norms that you enter with. There's not necessarily baggage, but there's expectations and labels that you enter with. Going to a third place helps you recraft those norms and intentionally reset the dynamics.
And then if you, if you want to, that's where you can bring in an outdoor accelerant aspect of it where you can then bring in different nature aspects to accelerate some of the change that you're going for. But really, the, the whole time embodying Praxis to, to tie back to what we talked about earlier, the cyclical process of theory, action, and reflection to really, uh, make the most out of gathering, to create a stronger team. That's really important. So priming everyone with what's some theory, what's some knowledge that we are learning, trying to grow whether ourselves or with our team. And then when we meet. Let's apply it. Let's actually put it , action. Let's engage experiential learning. But really importantly, after we're done, we're not done yet.
We need to have a, uh, a searing closing. Uh, a way to, uh, bring in that reflection of, okay, what do we learn and what do we do? How did that pan out? And then engage in that cyclical process of theory, action, and reflection.
MD: Yeah, great tips. I think some really good nuggets in there around kind of a perspective cleanser, maybe leveraging a third place, and then kind of embodying that spirit, like you said, of, uh, of theory, action and reflection out in the wilderness or just in a different location, um, that's breaking some of those norms.
JH: Yeah, absolutely.
MD: Awesome. Thank you for walking through all that. I, I feel like I've learned a handful of new, interesting concepts. I always learn stuff from you and I, I also think it's like studying for the SAT. You always teach me really interesting words that I haven't heard before. So, from mycelium last month to praxis on this call. Thank you for, for sharing a lot of your experience and, and wisdom there.
Lightning Round
Michael Daehne: A couple fun lightning round questions for you. I've been thinking this whole time all these adventures, do you have a favorite outdoor adventure that you've been on?
Joe Han: Ooh, many. But one really comes to mind that I still, uh, just look back so fondly of.
It was mountain biking the White Rim in Utah. Two of my best friends, we plan about a trip a year where we had to, you book far out in advance because of permits and all that. But I just remember, mountain biking in the desert where the only thing you need to think about is how much food have I eaten? How much water have I drank? Um, and then you just pedal, see beautiful, beautiful sites. Uh, so that was, that was a really special trip, I'd say.
MD: Oh man. That sounds awesome. How about, uh, best piece of leadership advice you've ever received?
JH: Yeah. This isn't necessarily advice, but more just a principle, which is that you are not the exception. I think that's so important. You know, you, you'll hear leaders create rules or think about norms for their teams but then excuse themselves from actually modeling that behavior themselves. And it can sneak up in really, uh, subtle ways, but you're not the exception.
Like what would that really mean? A mentor, for example, who's with these kids out there. He might say like, oh, I don't need to do that because I'm an adult. It's like, well, no, that, that's, that's not modeling good leadership. Right? Or a leader of a team might set these norms but then excuse themselves from engaging in a meeting or engaging in activity that, that they set up for their team and that sets a different energy that is contagious and other people will pick up on.
So that's probably the best piece of leadership advice. You are not the exception.
MD: I like that because it's a more direct and actionable framing than the concept servant leader. You hear that a lot, servant leader. And I think that's, it's kind of an unattainable title in a lot of ways. But the spirit of that that I like is you are not the exception, right? You roll up your sleeves and, and work alongside your team.
And so I'm going to steal that one from you.
JH: Nice.
MD: Last one. What's one thing you always bring on one of these wilderness retreats?
JH: You know, it's, it's not one you might expect, which is the magic behind it. It is these little fairy lights. AA battery-powered fairy lights. Because they just bring the vibe up so much.
When you're done hiking for the day and you create your little spot, or you're camping, you're not even hiking, vibe lights, go a long, long ways in helping people settle in, get comfortable and bring good energy.
MD: Love that. You could have given me a hundred guesses of what your answer was going to be, and I do not think I would've gotten vibe lights, but it makes total sense. And a good lesson there too. Something small, having a big impact.
JH: Yeah, absolutely.
Closing
Michael Daehne: Hey Joe, thank you so much for taking the time. I really enjoyed our conversation.
And for any of our, our listeners who may be looking for team or leadership development experiences, give Joe a call. I can see the value, I'm sure y'all can hear it to in using this outdoor accelerant idea to really connect among teams and drive better outcomes.
Joe Han: Absolutely. Thanks so much, Michael, for having me. It's been a pleasure.
MD: Thanks Joe. See ya.
JH: All right, see ya.
Mentioned
Peak Praxis: https://www.peak-praxis.com/